Curse

tacitus · Jan 05, 2007, 11:12 AM // 11:12

You really think some builds will be overpowered in 8v8?

First do you ever see whats going on in 6v6 HA?
Vim more of a problem than it was in 8v8 since less counters could be brought. Result nerf on skill itself
Then every second team became paragon way since 6v6 makes uber defensive teams playing uber defensive teams more comon. Result nerf of skills such as incoming.

Whats in Halls these days? Oh yeah Jagged way after Jagged way but its ok to stick to 6v6 HA because it stops overpowered builds from taking over. Right?

I mean think of the horror if people could bring flexible builds with counters to fotm.

Just in case people continue to dripple rubbish about 8v8 builds being IWAY, blood spike and whatever else people have nightmares about dont bother posting. 6v6 did not get rid of fotm builds in fact 6v6 encourages overpowered builds such as those mentioned.

Y O U Lo Se · Jan 05, 2007, 11:20 AM // 11:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Also Balanced rarely ever held halls. It was always ranger, blood or some kind of overpowered spike.

LOL Balanced held way more then those gimmicks, dunno what times you're playing but during euro prime times you never see gimmicks holding. Bspike only held in the euro mornings when there were like 5 teams in HA.

Spikes are so easy to counter and with only 2 monks you'll die from pressure before you can even search the ress signet on your skill bar.

Detraya fullvear · Jan 05, 2007, 12:05 PM // 12:05

Im trying not to laugh as i look at this post.... as all said before, spikes have come and gone. none of them are a serious threat for a COMPETENT, GOOD, balanced team. iway was and will probably always will be a joke. zomg dont kill the pets!!! just.... don't play dumb, and be able to learn what is around, and how to kill it, and you win!!. see, problems solved.

Cass · Jan 05, 2007, 12:08 PM // 12:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Detraya fullvear

Im trying not to laugh as i look at this post.... as all said before, spikes have come and gone. none of them are a serious threat for a COMPETENT, GOOD, balanced team. iway was and will probably always will be a joke. zomg dont kill the pets!!! just.... don't play dumb, and be able to learn what is around, and how to kill it, and you win!!. see, problems solved.

Amazing advice here. Don't post too much of this, or everyone will be R12 in days!

phasola · Jan 05, 2007, 12:26 PM // 12:26

Ian Boyd 2.0 ?

Kabale · Jan 05, 2007, 12:30 PM // 12:30

I predict some new Ranger Spike

/drool

But yeah, there's going to be lots of spiking done, although I highly doubt that SOMW will find it's place in 8vs8. No doubt NR/TQ will return as hex builds got a very decent buff (Reaper's Mark, Spoil Victor, amongst others) and there are a few more Enchantments that can be difficult to get around (Shield of Absorption mainly).

I'm going to leave it there though, as I'm now going to cry (silently) because 8vs8 HA is not confirmed yet...but I would orgasm if it was coming back <3

Quote:

Im trying not to laugh as i look at this post.... as all said before, spikes have come and gone. none of them are a serious threat for a COMPETENT, GOOD, balanced team. iway was and will probably always will be a joke. zomg dont kill the pets!!! just.... don't play dumb, and be able to learn what is around, and how to kill it, and you win!!. see, problems solved.

Although 1v1 it is easy, it's when you're holding that matters. And IWAY is always a threat when you're holding, more so after the introduction but OoA, but yeah, old news :P

lishi · Jan 05, 2007, 02:28 PM // 14:28

the only build who might be a probrem are Paragon heavy build since there aren't many counter right now.

the only decent one is vocal minority who is not great and completely useless outside a heavy hex build

Frank Dudenstein · Jan 05, 2007, 02:39 PM // 14:39

Bhavv ...here's what I think you are missing:

A spike build with bad players will get beat ... a pressure build with bad players will get beat ...

A spike build with good players will run well ... a pressure build ith good players will run well ...

Spike, pressure, iway, bloodspike, zergway etc are all viable ... but dependent on the quality of players.

None is particularly better than the others due to the amount of counters available in an 8-man build...you just need good players and teamwork.

Oren The Destroyer · Jan 05, 2007, 02:40 PM // 14:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Detraya fullvear

none of them are a serious threat for a COMPETENT, GOOD, balanced team.

True, but most of those left when 6v6 came.

Spike teams were a challenge. Sometimes you beat the crap out of em, sometimes you lost, but its variety. Its something other than the 3 or 4 teams you see now.

Franco Power · Jan 05, 2007, 02:58 PM // 14:58

I hope JR- doesn't see this post as a flame, it's not my intention, but this thread is complete rubbish, there will always be fotm, there will always be overpowered builds and there will always be people who play these to farm fame, this will never change in HA and it's not Anets fault, if they make HA 4vs4, 8vs8,12vs8,6vs6 whatever, there will always be fotms, overpowered builds and fame farming, as there will always be counters for it aswel.

Lorekeeper · Jan 05, 2007, 06:35 PM // 18:35

thing is... currently i dont think there are any overpowered builds in HA... theres just no builds with much utility so the current fotms are dominating. They are far from overpowered. They are just very effective in a balanceless 6vs6 environment.

oh kirsty kristy... ranger spike! plz noooo

well actually i do miss fighting them... will be fun to bring shields up on my warrior again. And i always love telling my team to hide behind walls. Thats the sort of gameplay i miss.... winning games while actually playing them instead of the builds deciding winners before the doors open.

whatever you do, please dont bring anthem of guidance+envy+gfte+ftw with your ranger spikes... and plz... no ritualist/ranger spirits strength spikers plz... that will annoy me soooo much and plz noooo sight beyond sight. Wow i think i might just run one just to see spikes going thru aegis+shields up+blinds.

mmm gonna have to run mantry recovery cry of frustrationsor dual pd or hex builds.

oh bugger youve got me all paranoid about rspike again. but how do i counter rspike AND steady stance iway?

ooooh

hexes

we will just have to see

Paddypower · Jan 05, 2007, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Well, iv wracked my brains over and over to think of a counter to the current jagged bones build and really the only builds that can counter this get rolled by "Zergway" *3 warrior steady stance 3 paragons* the meta is broken beyond before, and to people that say they didn't lose to "necrospike" amongst other builds, i'd say that 98% of the teams we ever faced with necrospike got ROLLED <-- in the first 1:30 seconds, fake spikes qz up most of the time we kept fertile up at the start and kept spiking becuase the monks energy would be destroyed, i think 4/5 shadowstrikes hit for full damage not just 3 or 4, but everything can be counterd, migrane was a problem altho it still got beat by us most of the time, a good interupt team owned us, but.. song of concintration will turn everything around, no more SB, so no SB infusers, but.. my point is the meta is the worst its ever been, how to counter jagged bones without losing to sandstorm way or zergway <-- the main problem.. i'd like someone else to tell me

Divineshadows · Jan 05, 2007, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paddypower

how to counter jagged bones without losing to sandstorm way or zergway? <-- the main problem.. i'd like someone else to tell me

By zergway I assume you mean the 3 warrior and 3 paragon fear me spam build with dual angelic bonders? Yes, that is one very annoying build to play against.

Best counter build I can think of for those three builds you listed consists of

- avatar of grenth dervish with banishing strike, wild blow, IAS, run buff, and a 3/4 second attack
- avatar of melandru dervish with banishing strike, wild blow, IAS, run buff, and a 3/4 second attack
- blinding surge dom mesmer with diversion, shame, gale, mistrust, glyph of lesser, and spiritual pain
- 2nd mesmer with same skills except swap shame for guilt and mistrust for shatter enchantment
- LoD monk with prot spirit, shield of absorption, aegis, holy veil, glyph of lesser
- ZB monk with spirit bond, shield of absorption, aegis, holy veil, glyph of lesser, and purge signet

Dual banishing strike and dual spiritual pain should blow up all minions and spirits while nuking their team at the same time.

Dual blinding surge and dual aegis should give you enough defense to give your mesmers enough time (and keep enough energy) to diversion their angelic bond and other key defensive shouts to allow your dervishes to slice them to pieces.

As for sandstorm way, most sandstorm bars are extremely energy tight. Many run arcane echo without glyph of lesser energy and even the slightest disruption to their bar makes them very useless for 30 seconds. Mistrust, guilt, and diversion should be enough to keep the sandstormers from operating well. Shatter earth attunement whenever you see one of the earth eles put it up. Oh, and don't stand in the sandstorms.

Messner · Jan 05, 2007, 11:09 PM // 23:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

By zergway I assume you mean the 3 warrior and 3 paragon fear me spam build with dual angelic bonders? Yes, that is one very annoying build to play against.

Best counter build I can think of for those three builds you listed consists of

- avatar of grenth dervish with banishing strike, wild blow, IAS, run buff, and a 3/4 second attack
- avatar of melandru dervish with banishing strike, wild blow, IAS, run buff, and a 3/4 second attack
- blinding surge dom mesmer with diversion, shame, gale, mistrust, glyph of lesser, and spiritual pain
- 2nd mesmer with same skills except swap shame for guilt and mistrust for shatter enchantment
- LoD monk with prot spirit, shield of absorption, aegis, holy veil, glyph of lesser
- ZB monk with spirit bond, shield of absorption, aegis, holy veil, glyph of lesser, and purge signet

Dual banishing strike and dual spiritual pain should blow up all minions and spirits while nuking their team at the same time.

Dual blinding surge and dual aegis should give you enough defense to give your mesmers enough time (and keep enough energy) to diversion their angelic bond and other key defensive shouts to allow your dervishes to slice them to pieces.

As for sandstorm way, most sandstorm bars are extremely energy tight. Many run arcane echo without glyph of lesser energy and even the slightest disruption to their bar makes them very useless for 30 seconds. Mistrust, guilt, and diversion should be enough to keep the sandstormers from operating well. Shatter earth attunement whenever you see one of the earth eles put it up. Oh, and don't stand in the sandstorms.

Or run vocal minority and shut the only thing that makes the build work, that thing being fearme...

This goes back to the rock paper scissors build advantages thing many have pointed out already. Unless you have what's needed to combat every build you can't realistically expect to win every fight. And if by some means you do work out a build that has a specific counter to just about everything, almost 100% of the time one or two of the four offensive slots will be relatively useless. With the current bullshit running around in halls and the insipid win conditions, there simply isn't enough room for the utility required to counter and play through the maps and builds, let alone overcome them with offense. The claim that skill determines a winner in HA has never been as untrue as it is in the 6v6 arena. 8v8 Please.

Dinkytowner · Jan 05, 2007, 11:16 PM // 23:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

thing is... currently i dont think there are any overpowered builds in HA... theres just no builds with much utility so the current fotms are dominating. They are far from overpowered. They are just very effective in a balanceless 6vs6 environment.

oh kirsty kristy... ranger spike! plz noooo

well actually i do miss fighting them... will be fun to bring shields up on my warrior again. And i always love telling my team to hide behind walls. Thats the sort of gameplay i miss.... winning games while actually playing them instead of the builds deciding winners before the doors open.

whatever you do, please dont bring anthem of guidance+envy+gfte+ftw with your ranger spikes... and plz... no ritualist/ranger spirits strength spikers plz... that will annoy me soooo much and plz noooo sight beyond sight. Wow i think i might just run one just to see spikes going thru aegis+shields up+blinds.

mmm gonna have to run mantry recovery cry of frustrationsor dual pd or hex builds.

oh bugger youve got me all paranoid about rspike again. but how do i counter rspike AND steady stance iway?

ooooh

hexes

we will just have to see

Tear...

I really miss 8v8 and this post makes me especially anxious to build with those two extra spots. Pointless post, but it made me fondly remember the good ol' days.

Oh, and Rt/R spirit strength spikes are going to be scary. The OP should be more scared of that in 8v8 then his Invoke spike.

Teh Mighty Warrior · Jan 05, 2007, 11:24 PM // 23:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

I'll probably get flamed for this, but dont really care. I would NOT like to see 8v8 returned because:

7x blood spike necros
6x Evicerate
8x Signet of Mystic Wrath
6-8x Invoke Lightning
6-8x Searing flames
6-8x Spiritual pain

No you cannot interupt the stability through resolve TY.

And also Diversion and backfire are easilly counterable with the divert hexes. Call it, it gets removed.

Ok, you could maybe use an extra monk for healing. The insane amount of extra damage the 8 man spike teams would deal would still overpower the extra monk.

Your saying that this isnt a problem because these builds can still be run in 6 man teams? If so 90% of teams still require 2 monks to stay alive, so that leaves 4 spaces....

4x Searing Flame (currently overused) = 476 damage in one hit at the most.
4x Invoke lightning = 424-560 damage (based on AP)
6x Mystic sig = 700ish damage.

Now add an extra two to those figures and tell me how many super monks there are that could infuse or heal up that much damage.

Current FOTM's are no where near as bad as the 8 team FOTM's.

And the reason there are so many less people playing HA nowadays is because blood spike, ranger spike, IWAY and Vimway dont work anymore. Good riddance to you, I much prefer HA in its current state.

Oh, and please bring back heroes in heroes ascent. Thank you.

Alright, I'm going to point out your obvious mistakes.

You CAN interrupt through stability and resolve. Blackout, PD, Power Block, there's a bunch more.

2 monk backline would never work in 8v8, you would get raped in a matter of minutes, only iA can pull that off.

Secondly who the hell is going to run 8 searing flames or 8 invokes, that's just a stupid number don't include it in your figures. Anyone with half a brain would realize that searing and spiritual will get nerfed, don't include that in your figures.

6 eviscerate wars what the hell, aegis + wards please? With 8v8 you have room to bring all that.

Mystic wrath would be worse off in 8v8 than 6v6, in 8v8 you can pack more than 1 enchant removal.

A decent mesmer will divert right before a spike, you can't count 3 2 "REMOVE DIVERSION ON 1" 1 spike!.

gasmaskman · Jan 06, 2007, 02:59 PM // 14:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dinkytowner

Tear...

I really miss 8v8 and this post makes me especially anxious to build with those two extra spots. Pointless post, but it made me fondly remember the good ol' days.

Oh, and Rt/R spirit strength spikes are going to be scary. The OP should be more scared of that in 8v8 then his Invoke spike.

We'll really be scared of it after the skill balance!! Which is coming. (hopefully sooner than later :[ )

2_fingers · Jan 06, 2007, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

By zergway I assume you mean the 3 warrior and 3 paragon fear me spam build with dual angelic bonders? Yes, that is one very annoying build to play against.

Best counter build I can think of for those three builds you listed consists of

- avatar of grenth dervish with banishing strike, wild blow, IAS, run buff, and a 3/4 second attack
- avatar of melandru dervish with banishing strike, wild blow, IAS, run buff, and a 3/4 second attack
- blinding surge dom mesmer with diversion, shame, gale, mistrust, glyph of lesser, and spiritual pain
- 2nd mesmer with same skills except swap shame for guilt and mistrust for shatter enchantment
- LoD monk with prot spirit, shield of absorption, aegis, holy veil, glyph of lesser
- ZB monk with spirit bond, shield of absorption, aegis, holy veil, glyph of lesser, and purge signet

Well since the discussion came to this topic, i remember beating a hall holding zergway when i was in a grp with 2 diversion mesmers. Cant remember which grp, but i think it was the black parades, the japan guild. Diverted everything on the paragons ... and things started dying.

Back on topic tho. Its really scary when ppl like bhavv posts on guru or other websites. Usually i wonder if anet actually reads these posts and take these seriously and makes decisions like how to improve the game on these .... posts. I was actually wondering if he was being sarcastic or ironic and i missed something completely

Lord Natural · Jan 06, 2007, 07:43 PM // 19:43

You think 6x Eviscerate would be an overpowered build? Let me guess, you tried HA once in July 2005, got beat by the first version of IWAY, then came back for heroway?

I welcome facing gimmick builds with overlapping skills. 90% of the time they're easier to beat than a well thought out balanced group.

tomcruisejr · Jan 06, 2007, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paddypower

Well, iv wracked my brains over and over to think of a counter to the current jagged bones build and really the only builds that can counter this get rolled by "Zergway" *3 warrior steady stance 3 paragons* the meta is broken beyond before, and to people that say they didn't lose to "necrospike" amongst other builds, i'd say that 98% of the teams we ever faced with necrospike got ROLLED <-- in the first 1:30 seconds, fake spikes qz up most of the time we kept fertile up at the start and kept spiking becuase the monks energy would be destroyed, i think 4/5 shadowstrikes hit for full damage not just 3 or 4, but everything can be counterd, migrane was a problem altho it still got beat by us most of the time, a good interupt team owned us, but.. song of concintration will turn everything around, no more SB, so no SB infusers, but.. my point is the meta is the worst its ever been, how to counter jagged bones without losing to sandstorm way or zergway <-- the main problem.. i'd like someone else to tell me

here's your answer

Quote:

...and to people that say they didn't lose to "necrospike" amongst other builds, i'd say that 98% of the teams we ever faced with necrospike got ROLLED

yes, necro spike. but too bad you need 8 players for that to be rolling 98% of the teams. and that's why you want 8vs8 back so you can play necrospike and yes, lemme repeat, roll 98% of the teams.